[Feedback] Leafcutter missions feedback

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
Some feedback for the leafcutter formicarium missions. The missions play nice on normal difficulty but there are some things that stand out because they either feel a bit odd or are somewhat more serious. As always I am open to feedback to my feedback.

3.1:

1. There's one thing I can think of for this mission, just one. (Or at least for the moment there's just one.)
The information message says that the leafcutter media are the "staple harvesters" of the leafcutters. Unfortunately minors have better harvesting than media. (Details in the general section.) Going for many media will bring your gathering rates down and will probably lose you the mission.

3.2:

1. Army ant progress continues when no army ants are present on the map.
This means the player can't combat their progress.

2. Army ant progress is only influenced by the player. (other than progress gained over time)
On insane difficulty I've seen army ants getting slaugthered by mantids, getting pushed off the map almost entirely. It just feels wrong to see the army ants struggling to stay alive yet still make progress.

It might be interesting to look into making army ant progress depend on something like food delivered or something similar? (So when they get slaughtered they don't make much progress.)

3. Army ants have trouble against large opponents. A large mantis or cricket can ruin the day of a group of army ants out to forage. If I remember correctly, in nature army ants overwhelm their opponents. Majors pin down the enemy by biting and not letting go, while smaller army ant castes sting and cut it.

Just an idea: Instead of a "swarm" attack bonus the army ant majors could get accumulative stun? When enough majors are attacking the same target it gets stunned.
(Warning: Complicated idea! Skip if you are allergic to math or logic! Some psuedo code to summarise the idea behind each step.)

A creature would have their own amount of stun, their own stun threshold, their own stun resistance, and their own stun recovery.
When a creature is attacked by an army ant major it receives an amount of stun with every hit taken. (Stun taken = stunAttack - stunResist. stun taken can't be below 0.)
This stun is added to their stun amount. (myStun += stunTaken)
If the creature's stun amount is on or past its stun threshold, it is stunned. (if myStun >= stunThreshold, set stunned to true. else set stunned to false)

This allows multiple ants to stun-lock a target as a group, but it is probably a bit too complicated for EotU since it (if I remember correctly) is trying to keep things simple.

In general:

1. Unlike with the other ants, enemies are not food to the leafcutter.
This makes fights a loss from the start. Increased difficulty increases the number of enemies. In the other missions these additional enemies can become food for the nest if the player plays it correctly. For leafcutters these enemies are only extra obstacles to get to those precious leaves. Making foraging far from the nest increasingly costly.

2. There is no renewable food as leaf does not regrow after harvesting it.
This makes missions even more difficult. This can be used as an element to force fights over food or similarties, but it can also lock a player to the nest if there are too many enemies to get to the leaves.

Something simple may be to add a small (or huge for an ant) tree that we can't see the top of. Leafcutters would walk up and come down with leaf.
Another thing may be to add some regrowth to larger saplings. So that food can't run out, but it stays limited.

3. Leafcutters often don't cut leaf at their maximum cutting size.
Example: There's a 20 leaf plant and two level 1 media want to cut it. The first media cuts 15 leaf, the second cuts just 5.
This just feels unpleasant to watch, while other ants almost always cut 15 food from an enemy each.

My suggestion is to have each caste cut their own amount regardless of level, but that the cutting speed is determined by level instead.
Example: a level 1, 2 and 3 media each cut 20 leaf. But their cutting speed is faster with each level.

One major issue with this is the number of media the player needs would be minor reduced to a bare minimum. This may be adressed by reducing media cutting speed to require more to keep the minors running with leaf.

4. Minors are more cost-effective in cutting than media.
Minors cost 1/4th a media, but gather for roughly 1/3rd a media. This means minors are more cost effective than media for harvesting purposes. Media are still highly important to have if you don't properly guard the supply lines, as they can fend off lone enemies with their numbers.

A suggestion that probably increases leafcutter gathering rate and possibly brings the gathering rate closer to that of other ants: Cut or carry.
Simply put, ants either: gather food, cut leaves, carry leaves, or don't gather food.
Cut allows a player to have their ants stay at the vegetation, they climb up, cut some leave, get down, drop it, repeat. This creates a leaf pile for other ants to carry from. (This is an excellent task for ants that cut large leaf chuncks.)
Carry allows a player to have their ants not cut, but only carry leaf already on the ground. This also allows players to raid enemy harvesting sites or lines. (As ants won't simply climb up the nearest sapling.)

5. Enemies tend to walk onto the foraging trails when attacking. I've seen this so many times, a large cricket walks onto the supply line and performs its area bleed attack on workers who are passing by with "no attack" on. Even when attacked by soldiers the cricket keeps attacking the worker ants because they are closer to it.

It would be so sweet to have an "avoid combat" option so the ants just walk around the cricket while it is pinned down by soldiers.

6. When playing media-heavy the leaves backlog.
Simply put when you have more media than minors the leaves in your leaf storages will pile up. This happens because there are too few minim workers to process them.

Suggestion is to make media worker nest tiles spawn two minims instead of one.
 
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pakitane16

Colony
Army ants have trouble against large opponents. A large mantis or cricket can ruin the day of a group of army ants out to forage. If I remember correctly, in nature army ants overwhelm their opponents.

"Overwhelm". I've tested in Arena and you need 8 major to overwhelm a single medium creature and 12 for large creature, the speciffic number of ants allow them to tank a bit for their ability to kick in. In 3.2, the army ants march with a line of minor and occasionally a group of 8-10 major that split midway, not reaching the magic number. So 2 mantis cutting in line can probably take out the whole line themselves. I agree with the progress bar, I'd prefer it to be base on visible ants count or something like that.

There's a 20 leaf plant and two level 1 media want to cut it. The first media cuts 15 leaf, the second cuts just 5. This just feels unpleasant to watch, while other ants almost always cut 15 food from an enemy each.

Really? I think woodlice give 40 food and they take 15-15-10.

Minors cost 1/4th a media, but gather for roughly 1/3rd a media. This means minors are more cost effective than media for harvesting purposes. Media are still highly important to have if you don't properly guard the supply lines, as they can fend off lone enemies with their numbers.

Not just fending off lone enemy but running away from them while in non-attack mode, they can survive random cricket bleed damage and spider strike. They don't drop in speed while carrying. So they are more of danger zone harvester and are more valuable in harder mode. I beat medium easily with 120 minor and 5 major. But in hard using mostly minor is really tough with how many trapjaws and crickets there are.

Simply put when you have more media than minors the leaves in your leaf storages will pile up. This happens because there are too few minim workers to process them. Suggestion is to make media worker nest tiles spawn two minims instead of one.

The pile up still can happen when you mass harvest after combating, and you can just build more minor. 2 minim per spawn seems overkill to me.
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
Really? I think woodlice give 40 food and they take 15-15-10.
The same amount of leaf (40) in small 20 leaf saplings would be: 15-5-15-5 by a media ant, giving 10 as average. (minors would have 7-7-6-7-7-6)
The woodlice would give 13 + 1/3 as average, as it takes one fewer run.
If you compare the cost in food gathered / tilecost you get:

ant / gathering rate gained per food invested / calculation
black ant soldier: 0.266 (= 13.33333 / 50)
black ant worker: 0.666 (= 13.33333 / 20)
wood ant ranged: 0.222 (= 13.33333/ 60)
leafcutter media: 0.125 (= 10 / 80)
leafcutter minor: 0.333 (= 6.66666 / 20)

(Whoa! I did not expect the gap to be that wide.)
As you can see, the black ants would have double the gathering rate gained per food invested compared to leafcutter media. Also keep in mind there are woodworms that give 25 food in one run.
Just out of curiosity I am doing the optimal gathering rates too:

black ant soldier: 0.3 (= 15 / 50)
black ant worker: 0.75 (= 15 / 20)
wood ant ranged: 0.25 (= 15/ 60)
leafcutter media: 0.1875 (= 15 / 80)
leafcutter minor: 0.35 (= 7 / 20)

For leafcutter media with 20 base gather it would be: 0.25 (= 20 / 80) getting close to soldiers of the formica ants. with carry only leafcutter workers would bring in 15 each if a media cuts for them resulting in: 0.75 (= 15 / 20) Making their gathering rate the same as that of other worker ants if you don't compensate for the media's tile cost. If you were to make media cut 20 it gives: 1.00 (= 20 / 20), but workers are significantly slowed down. So each worker's gather rate is significantly lower.

(The difference is a bit more than I expected here too.)
 
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Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
An easy way to combat the build up of leaves in the food storage is how you set up your nest. If you build your major and media tiles adjacent to the leaf drops off, the minims will barely have to walk to deposit the leaves into the brood chambers. Also build your refuse very close, so your minims don't have to travel much. On 3.1 a strategy that wins consistently on hard and 50% on insane is mass media, and for every 7 media ants, build one major. I'm just saying this because I used to try to build my nest like how I would build my nest with the other ant species, in neat chambers around the queen, but with leaf cutters, this is very ineffective.

I do see what you mean about the unpleasantness of watching media and major ants collect a tiny leaf from a plant with little food left. But, I don't think that making the leaf cutter castes all cut the same base amount of leaf is the right way to solve that problem. Since you seemed concerned about realism with army ants, as you suggested that they should realistically tear up bigger insects like they do in nature, why shouldn't leaf cutters also be realistic? In nature, media ants carry bigger leaves than minors, and majors carry bigger leaves than media.

Overall I would say these levels are balanced, and I'd say the main issue with 3.2 on insane is the amount of insects that spawn. What about, on insane, rather than increasing the amount of insects to an absurd level, increasing the amount of army ants? This, I feel, would result in something just as challenging, but far more enjoyable, since it would be easier to gather leaves and build a huge army, but then the army ants too would have more numbers. It's more enjoyable to see large armies of ants clash compared to harvesting leaves and having bush crickets attacking your foraging trail constantly. The main event of 3.2, after all, isn't bush crickets, it's the army ants.
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
An easy way to combat the build up of leaves in the food storage is how you set up your nest. If you build your major and media tiles adjacent to the leaf drops off, the minims will barely have to walk to deposit the leaves into the brood chambers. Also build your refuse very close, so your minims don't have to travel much. On 3.1 a strategy that wins consistently on hard and 50% on insane is mass media, and for every 7 media ants, build one major. I'm just saying this because I used to try to build my nest like how I would build my nest with the other ant species, in neat chambers around the queen, but with leaf cutters, this is very ineffective.
I understand building the tiles really close together is a way to prevent leaves from piling up. But it would look so... odd? For what I understand part of the game is to give that neat nest feel to players. By forcing something like building everything almost right next to each other in an odd looking way it just loses at least part of that feel.

I do see what you mean about the unpleasantness of watching media and major ants collect a tiny leaf from a plant with little food left. But, I don't think that making the leaf cutter castes all cut the same base amount of leaf is the right way to solve that problem
I didn't mean all castes cut the same amount. I meant each caste cuts their own amount. (e.g. minors cut 10, media cut 20, majors... also 20? regardless of their level.)
Ooops, I made an error in that post yes. I corrected it.

Since you seemed concerned about realism with army ants, as you suggested that they should realistically tear up bigger insects like they do in nature, why shouldn't leaf cutters also be realistic? In nature, media ants carry bigger leaves than minors, and majors carry bigger leaves than media.

Army ants have trouble against large opponents. A large mantis or cricket can ruin the day of a group of army ants out to forage.
Just an idea: Instead of a "swarm" attack bonus the army ant majors could get accumulative stun? When enough majors are attacking the same target it gets stunned.
It's not that much concern about realism, it's more about the army ants' ability to fight large opponents so they don't get slaughtered. (Using real life army ants as example.)


why shouldn't leaf cutters also be realistic? In nature, media ants carry bigger leaves than minors, and majors carry bigger leaves than media.
I suggested for castes to have their own cut size.

Overall I would say these levels are balanced, and I'd say the main issue with 3.2 on insane is the amount of insects that spawn.
I agree. For the game in its current form it's just so many.

Overall I would say these levels are balanced, and I'd say the main issue with 3.2 on insane is the amount of insects that spawn. What about, on insane, rather than increasing the amount of insects to an absurd level, increasing the amount of army ants? This, I feel, would result in something just as challenging, but far more enjoyable, since it would be easier to gather leaves and build a huge army, but then the army ants too would have more numbers. It's more enjoyable to see large armies of ants clash compared to harvesting leaves and having bush crickets attacking your foraging trail constantly. The main event of 3.2, after all, isn't bush crickets, it's the army ants.
I HIGHLY agree with this. I also made a post about it if I remember correctly where I suggested the same.
 

Rayalot72

Maximum difficulty
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
I think for 3.2 instead of increasing the amount of enemies present, the army ants should be leveled up. Level 2 for Hard and level 3 for Insane. This increases the difficulty without overshadowing the army ants.

I'm a fan of the idea that the enemies should be logarithmic, so they still increase over time but this is less pronounced as the game goes on. That way, they can't become an absurd obstacle after a few days.

Some enemies are also still unbalanced. L praying mantises are actually in a good spot, but M and L bush crickets, and potentially A rove beetles are way threatening because their AoE destroys your food.
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
I'm a fan of the idea that the enemies should be logarithmic, so they still increase over time but this is less pronounced as the game goes on. That way, they can't become an absurd obstacle after a few days.

Some enemies are also still unbalanced. L praying mantises are actually in a good spot, but M and L bush crickets, and potentially A rove beetles are way threatening because their AoE destroys your food.
After a few days the spawns got... to a point where reaching the army ants became impossible.
 

pakitane16

Colony
After a few days the spawns got... to a point where reaching the army ants became impossible.
I wonder if letting creatures fight each other can fix this. They may somewhat control the number of each other. For now it seems that only harvestmen are targeted by bush crickets, and it doesn't happen all the time.
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
I wonder if letting creatures fight each other can fix this. They may somewhat control the number of each other. For now it seems that only harvestmen are targeted by bush crickets, and it doesn't happen all the time.
I've seen normal environment creatures of any type getting attacked by other environment creatures in the 3.2 leafcutter mission.
From what I have seen I think each creature has a small chance to be spawned in a different environment team. Effectively making all environment creatures hostile to them.
 

JohnSlugDisco

Administrator
Staff member
Developer of EotU
I have noticed a number change somewhere that really should not have changed (breaking mole cricket spawn times on 1.2) and now am wondering if this could have happened elsewhere possibly during the movement code switch. It is totally possible some of the difficulty setup numbers have gone awry.
 

JohnSlugDisco

Administrator
Staff member
Developer of EotU
OK so a massive issue that some have pointed out and will have been effecting this levels balance hugely has been dealt with (3.2). The army ants are meant to fight the night creatures essentially culling there numbers. One of the optimisations we made put creatures into vision buckets so they see there enemies when they are spawned, however something happening in this level was setting alliances after they were spawned essentially leading to vision wise the army ants thinking they were allied with the other creatures and only attacking them when they were attacked. This level will need a retest once the next patch is out (probably tomorrow morning!)
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
I still think food could be a little more plentiful in mission 3.2. It took me 3 days and nights to strip the map of nearly all food available food:
All that remained were some plants with a very small amount left because it was faster to skip it than to wait for it to be collected.
I may have had slightly more forces than would have been needed to acieve the objective. (When in doubt, scale up everything!)
 
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