3.x challenge mode insane

Durburz

Worker
I have tried to beat 3.1 on Insane several times now, but I can't even come close to finishing it. 3.2 I haven't tried after trying 3.1 for a day, kinda lost interest.
 

JohnSlugDisco

Administrator
Staff member
Developer of EotU
Will keep our on on the difficulty. We already nerfed insane on 3.2 but I imagine challenge mode really ramps it up. Its hard to balance something beyond my own ability. Any suggestion for how it could be made fairer?
 

Durburz

Worker
I will try 3.2 with challenge mode in the coming days and give you feedback on it. I think the level should be fine with the challenge, but I don't want to jump to conclusions. Although 3.1 Insane as been doable from the start, I have tried making consistent strategies on this map and I haven't been able to make more than one win in a row. I always had to fail in between due to trapjaws running through my lines too many times, then pulling an adult mantis along, etc etc. However, with these phorid flies, one is forced to run a different route throughout the level (despite of what the ai might be doing), because it makes no sense to have all your starting workers get sick reaaaaaaaaallly slow and then die.

The thing is, if you were to kill the ants outright, you could at least replace the worker. Now, if you do decide to run into a phorid flies infested bush, almost your entire farming force will be less effective for a long time and die. The problem I have run into so far is that if you want to get access to non-infested bushes after clearing the left bushes, your routes will contain enemies that you don't want and cannot fight (adult mantises for instance) but also the jumping spiders jumping in and out. All these small things coupled with the fact that you cannot farm a lot of leaves on this map means I was behind too much for me to even try to beat to beat the a.i. on eco or by military force. Going for upgraded units is not an option on Insane, as you will lose out heavily on income. Just think about it, do I want 20 level 3 mediae or 60 lvl 1 mediae if I am fighting an eco battle? Clearly I want 3x the amount of possible food I can process.

You will lose units nonetheless in your worker line, for instance, a mantis will eat a lvl 1 or lvl 3 mediae just the same, but then losing a lvl 3 =240 food investment with only 1x income returned is a big dent. Now if I have a buttload of mediae, losing that 1-3 workers is not a problem as I have 59-57 more mediae to provide me with food . On top of that, making them lvl 2 and 3 are heavy investments that won't pay themselves off, just to survive a phorid fly. For me the challenge basically tells me that I will lose units and I can't do anything about it due to the flies, because its not a smart investment to upgrade units.

I only think upgrades are useful in 2.2 Queen of the Hill when you are dealing with large quantity of ants and lvl 3 mortars basically trash them all.
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
Durburz, upgrading ants can be specifically better than numbers not just on 2.2 but also on 2.1 insane. 50 level 3 rapid fires will get you the win, but 150 rapid fires will not work due to lagging the game (at least before the update, not sure how much performance has been improved on that level ,but I think 150 rapid fires shooting at the same time probably still lag).

If you have seen balanite's 3.1 insane video strategy, that works for me very consistently, sometimes I can win with a bit of overkill with 3000 leaves more. With 3.1 + challenge, the whole strategy falls apart because there is no rapid growth in the beginning due to phorid flies on the patch of leaves to the right of the nest. I think if certain phorid fly swarms are moved further away from the player's nest, Hofnerd's insane strategy of killing the enemy queen may become possible.

Small question to devs: If killing the enemy queen is a way to win 3.1, why not put that up in the objectives? "gather x amount of leaves before enemy or kill enemy queen". It may get more people attempt it, and new players will at least know that it is possible to do. It may not actually be obvious to some people that it is possible to win the level that way, for two reasons: on level 2.2, you can't do it, and second, they may have tried it once and got absolutely demolished due to not knowing how the 3.1 enemy colony AI/mechanics work.
 

Mr_Ced

Colony
I have completed 3.1 on Insane mode almost completely fair with the challenge mode. The new pathfinding, I found, made the enemy trails go into the creature spawns. This made them get absolutely destroyed on Insane by the creatures that were supposed to protect them!

Unfortunately they sent out majors around the 12,000 mark, cutting my "fair" game short. I started using the paused combat glitch at this point to win the level since they were so intense.(Almost wiped my colony before I could put it into effect)
 

Durburz

Worker
I have completed 3.1 on Insane mode almost completely fair with the challenge mode. The new pathfinding, I found, made the enemy trails go into the creature spawns. This made them get absolutely destroyed on Insane by the creatures that were supposed to protect them!

Unfortunately they sent out majors around the 12,000 mark, cutting my "fair" game short. I started using the paused combat glitch at this point to win the level since they were so intense.(Almost wiped my colony before I could put it into effect)

So you used an exploit to beat the level? Doesn't seem like a proper benchmark to me then. Those majors attacking you when you are ahead is part of the level. I hadn't had the ai suiciding into forest creatures yet, is this consistent every playthrough for you?

Durburz, upgrading ants can be specifically better than numbers not just on 2.2 but also on 2.1 insane. 50 level 3 rapid fires will get you the win, but 150 rapid fires will not work due to lagging the game (at least before the update, not sure how much performance has been improved on that level ,but I think 150 rapid fires shooting at the same time probably still lag).

If you have seen balanite's 3.1 insane video strategy, that works for me very consistently, sometimes I can win with a bit of overkill with 3000 leaves more. With 3.1 + challenge, the whole strategy falls apart because there is no rapid growth in the beginning due to phorid flies on the patch of leaves to the right of the nest. I think if certain phorid fly swarms are moved further away from the player's nest, Hofnerd's insane strategy of killing the enemy queen may become possible.

Small question to devs: If killing the enemy queen is a way to win 3.1, why not put that up in the objectives? "gather x amount of leaves before enemy or kill enemy queen". It may get more people attempt it, and new players will at least know that it is possible to do. It may not actually be obvious to some people that it is possible to win the level that way, for two reasons: on level 2.2, you can't do it, and second, they may have tried it once and got absolutely demolished due to not knowing how the 3.1 enemy colony AI/mechanics work.

I hadn't looked up a strategy for this level as I was able to beat it, unlike 3.2 on which I tried to find as much as I could to beat it. I will check out the strat suggested by you and try 3.1 with challenge mode again.
True, 2.1 is indeed easier with lvl 3 rapid fires or even mortars. If you hold the creature spawn above ground with lvl 3 mortars, those (tiny) spiders get #rekt. You can still win without upgrading them on 2.1, but doing 2.2 without upgrading them = death on the last waves.
 

Mr_Ced

Colony
Definitely would be beatable with enough practice and luck. The area just to the left of center gives the enemy colony trouble, since they go down the center ramp instead of the safe path.
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
Alright, I played 3.1 + challenge on hard and insane. I won hard on my first try relatively easily, but I am unable to win insane. The key to both difficulties is certainly being extremely aggressive. Both times, I went for about 70 level 1 workers, 5 level 1 media, and on hard I was able to get 24 level 1 majors while on insane I got 20 level 1 majors. On hard, I simply used my majors to camp the enemy nest, and on this difficulty it is pretty simple to deplete the enemy's food stores and kill them (while gathering in selective areas with minors and medias, and sometimes even stealing the enemy's leaves that they dropped just outside their nest). On insane, I was doing the same strategy, but it's much harder to deplete their food stores since they have so many additional ants (pretty much an extra army on insane). Building so many majors early and being aggressive was actually a very successful strategy, though, since even though I was unsuccessful at depleting their food, I was able to gain a 2200 leaf lead. I kept this lead up until I was about at 9600 leaves, and they had about 7400. This is because I was killing their gathering trail, and when their large reinforcement wave came, they guarded the spot that they were attacked, which was right outside their nest, so they didn't actually gather any leaves and were wasting time.

9600 leaves is where I lost the level, though, since by this point, there was an absurd amount of phorid flies. Since I had all level 1 ants, I couldn't go anywhere without being killed. I was pretty much out of food, but I had about 20 majors outside the enemy nest, and the enemy was out of food too. I made the mistake of entering their nest since they still had some media and majors instead of continuing to camp outside. I doubt I could have killed their queen with 0 food though, since they still had major spawns, but it was close. This run was 55 minutes and only 9600 leaves, but it may have been finished much quicker if phorid flies had not spawned every where and cut off my food supply and my ants going up to the enemy base.

Some suggestions:
Essentially, I think this challenge mode forces the player not to upgrade their ants, but to be super aggressive, and build a lot of majors early, and be constantly attacking the enemy with them. Based on this, I have some suggestions for insane balance:

1. I definitely think the phorid flies that spawn all over the sapling patch just to the north of the player at about 45-50 minutes in should not be there. If the whole basis of the strategy is to be super aggressive, it falls apart once you can't even go to the enemy nest. This is probably the most important suggestion.

2. The phorid flies that spawn on the sapling patch just to the right of the player spawn in very early (maybe about 2 minutes in). Maybe extend this, so the player has time to gather from this patch (this could go for all difficulties but might be needed on insane specifically).

3. If you do not want to do suggestion 2, at least consider this: reduce the range of the phorid flies that spawn on the sapling patches to the left and right of the player. This at least allows the player to gather from other sites and avoid the phorid flies (the phorid flies to the left are certainly not avoidable, but do they increase their numbers in individual infestations with time? since around 50 min in, the phorid flies basically surround the player, you can't go left, you can't go right, you can't go to the enemy). In the beginning, the phorid flies to the right are not as bad as the ones to the left, but they occasionally do get ants. Since there are so many adult bush crickets that spawn to the right, however, it is a very bad place to gather from at night.

There's not actually as much balance to do for this level as it might seem, since small things can make a big difference. With a bit of luck, the level might actually be doable right now without any balancing. Just watch all my suggestions be rendered useless by someone who somehow comes up with a consistent winning strategy!
 

Mr_Ced

Colony
Aggression is not very effective at higher difficulties I think. The enemy will start spawning huge waves of reinforcements at around the 12,000 mark, which will wear down your food supplies already being drained by creatures killing your minors.

You should try and clear all of the patches of food before they reach the target, always keeping slightly behind them. With luck, you will get a perfect number where they cannot harvest anymore and are short of the goal. Then you can harvest the areas they do not go to and win the level. I did this in my original Insane run and it came close(they had 13,950) but they ran out.
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
Aggression is not very effective at higher difficulties I think. The enemy will start spawning huge waves of reinforcements at around the 12,000 mark, which will wear down your food supplies already being drained by creatures killing your minors.

You should try and clear all of the patches of food before they reach the target, always keeping slightly behind them. With luck, you will get a perfect number where they cannot harvest anymore and are short of the goal. Then you can harvest the areas they do not go to and win the level. I did this in my original Insane run and it came close(they had 13,950) but they ran out.

How did you manage to out harvest them on insane without upgrading your ants though? By 50 minutes phorid flies practically surround the player.
 
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Mr_Ced

Colony
How did you manage to out harvest them on insane without upgrading your ants though? By 50 minutes phorid flies practically surround the player.
I did upgrade my ants, but not the minors, since they do not gain immunity to the flies. It seems that the level three ants, despite having a cool down on deleting flies, still attract them, distracting them from my minors.
 

Durburz

Worker
I just beat 3.1 Insane + challenge on the second try. Tried to upload screenshots but apparantly GoG takes screens that are too large for this forum. The only difference between regular and with challenge is trying to get atleast 1 group of lvl 3 mediae and 1 group of lvl 3 majors. The majors can be used for fighting and blocking the enemy wherever while having the lvl 3mediae group farming the phorid fly bushes. Make sure to have enough mediae in your regular farming group too, and focus them first. I think I went 19 worker, 19 mediae, then made 7 major, made another group of 7 mediae, turned them into level 3 and have them start farming the phorid fly bushes, then added another 19 mediae, then made all my major lvl 3. The round started to go wrong, the bot was at 13,909 and then I started to fight his farming trail and steal whatever he took. In the end I blobbed my entire army in front of his base while letting the lvl 3 mediae still farm phorid bushes and have my worker group pick up and leaves that were dropped on the map. Round ended with me having ~13,980 and killing the opposing queen because I bled their resources to 0 by killing all their troops. Seems you can win either way with the challenge on. Will keep you posted when I do 3.2 Insane challenge.
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
I just beat 3.1 Insane + challenge on the second try. Tried to upload screenshots but apparantly GoG takes screens that are too large for this forum. The only difference between regular and with challenge is trying to get atleast 1 group of lvl 3 mediae and 1 group of lvl 3 majors. The majors can be used for fighting and blocking the enemy wherever while having the lvl 3mediae group farming the phorid fly bushes. Make sure to have enough mediae in your regular farming group too, and focus them first. I think I went 19 worker, 19 mediae, then made 7 major, made another group of 7 mediae, turned them into level 3 and have them start farming the phorid fly bushes, then added another 19 mediae, then made all my major lvl 3. The round started to go wrong, the bot was at 13,909 and then I started to fight his farming trail and steal whatever he took. In the end I blobbed my entire army in front of his base while letting the lvl 3 mediae still farm phorid bushes and have my worker group pick up and leaves that were dropped on the map. Round ended with me having ~13,980 and killing the opposing queen because I bled their resources to 0 by killing all their troops. Seems you can win either way with the challenge on. Will keep you posted when I do 3.2 Insane challenge.
any idea of how many minutes your round was?
 

Durburz

Worker
any idea of how many minutes your round was?

My stats were:
Time 64:21
Combat score: 19,796
Resources collected: 13,927 (wanted to snipe queen)
Construction and Upgrades: 9,390
Total score: 43,133

If you can get their worker lines under control and siege their base, you can starve them of resources and you have full control over the map. Treat this map like an rts skirmish and you want to take down an opponent. Usually, the easiest and most effective way to do this is to attack their economy. Don't worry once you are a couple thousand behind because you can still catch up. Good luck!

Edit: does anyone know how to change screenshots so I can post them here?
 
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