[Feedback Request] Unit Balance

[JohnSlugDisco]

With the next beta patch I would like to run a unit balance pass. I am already going to make changes to leafcutter media and army ant media however I was wondering if people felt strongly about other units.

Additionally what do you think would improve them (including the two mentioned above)?

 

[Mr_Ced]

The Formica sanguinea are actually worse than black ants despite their cost increase. I tested them 2v2 in the Tug of War mission and they didn't come close to killing 2 black ants.

 

[HofNerd]

Suggestion: Slightly shorter bite reach for wood ant melee. This to make them useful in non-ranged builds with other small ants (black ant, AA media, etc). The shorter attack reach makes them get closer than other melee units, causing enemies to target them first.

 

[HofNerd]

The Formica sanguinea are actually worse than black ants despite their cost increase. I tested them 2v2 in the Tug of War mission and they didn't come close to killing 2 black ants.

That is probably because you did not upgrade them immediately. The combat values* of blacks ant soldiers at each level are roughly:
lvl 1: 3.6
lvl 2: 2,6
lvl 3: 3.3

For slave maker ants these values are roughly:
lvl 1: 2.3
lvl 2: 3.3
lvl 3: 6.0

This means that slave maker ants yield far more combat power when upgraded.

* Combat values calculated as: Health * AttackDamage * Attack speed.

 

[HofNerd]

Suggestion: Slightly faster attack mode switching for wood ant rapid fire. At the moment wood ant rapid fire take quite some time to get ready to fire and needs to re-enter the attack mode after it lost its original target. Due to the nature of wood ant rapid fire their time switching is relatively long compared to mortars. Giving rapid fire a slightly faster switch to attack mode could bring them closer to the power of wood ant mortars when fighting large groups of weaker enemies.

 

[MedinB]

The Formica sanguinea are actually worse than black ants despite their cost increase. I tested them 2v2 in the Tug of War mission and they didn't come close to killing 2 black ants.

Oh, really. Does anybody know the stats for them. I thought they were more powerful.

 

[HofNerd]

Hmmm... I found something interesting in the CreatureStats stat sheet. For some reason some ants don't have health regen? (0 HealthPerSecond)
SlaveMakerAnt1 has 0 health regen. (SlaveMakerAnt2 and 3 both have 0.1 health regen.)
All levels of leafcutter minor ants don't have health regen? (They have 0 HealthPerSecond.)
Harvestman_Large1 has 1 health per second and Harvestman_Small1 has 0.3 health per second. (Only non-ants with a non-zero HealthPerSecond. Which I think is a bit odd?)

Anyway, I wanted to suggest that higher level (melee) ants get an increase to their health regen. lvl 2 ants would get 0.2 health/second and lvl 3 get 0.3 health per second. Health regeneration would still take a lot of time, but the increase would make it slightly more noticable. (A lvl 3 leafcutter media would take 6 minutes 40 seconds to heal from 0 to full health instead of 20 minutes. Both times are way beyond the average lifespan of a media leafcutter in EotU, so it should not be that big a difference.)

 

[Buffalo981]

I would suggest a decent bit more attack damage for leaf cutter media, to incentivize building more media for the purpose of damage dealing, and then building majors to do the tanking. As of right now, majors fill the role of both primary damage dealer and tank. That's fine, since it is realistic.

However, I think that media could still do with a damage buff, since dealing damage is probably the leaf cutter's biggest area of weakness. The level of difficulty of 3.1 and 3.2 is a significant bit higher than 2.1 and 2.2, and maybe giving media more damage would help make the level feel fairer to newer players, as insect spawns would be easier to deal with. The same goes for free play.

If you don't want to possibly throw off the balance of 3.1 and 3.2 too much, one option is to only give leaf cutter media a decent attack damage buff at level 3 only, since it is unlikely people will upgrade their ants in 3.1 and 3.2. And I think this would work well with the challenge modes on 3.1 and 3.2, since I feel like there should be more benefits to upgrading leaf cutters to level 3 on these levels.

 

[JohnSlugDisco]

The Formica sanguinea are actually worse than black ants despite their cost increase. I tested them 2v2 in the Tug of War mission and they didn't come close to killing 2 black ants.

Have you tried upgrading them? I remember my value calculation with them came out saying you get good value from them at level 3

 

[JohnSlugDisco]

I am going to go through all these posts tomorrow morning and make some dicisions. Will probably be streaming it so I look forward to a chat!

 

[HofNerd]

Probably a bit more attack damage for leaf cutter media, to incentivize building more media for the purpose of damage dealing, and then building majors to do the tanking. As of right now, majors fill the role of both primary damage dealer and tank

Leafcutter media will generally tank for the major ants though, as media have shorter attack reach and have to get closer and therefor get attacked first. Major ant taunt counters this, but only partially. I think giving leafcutter media a movement speed increase (and maybe a tiny attack damage increase) could make them much more useful. It would make them a better unit than the leafcutter minor ant for collecting leaves far away (because they have better survival chances) and it may also make them more useful as a skirmishing unit. (As leafcutter media then can attack quickly and quickly run away when stronger ants would threathen them.

 

[Buffalo981]

Leafcutter media will generally tank for the major ants though, as media have shorter attack reach and have to get closer and therefor get attacked first. Major ant taunt counters this, but only partially. I think giving leafcutter media a movement speed increase (and maybe a tiny attack damage increase) could make them much more useful. It would make them a better unit than the leafcutter minor ant for collecting leaves far away (because they have better survival chances) and it may also make them more useful as a skirmishing unit. (As leafcutter media then can attack quickly and quickly run away when stronger ants would threathen them.

This would for sure be helpful for 3.2, but what would it do to 3.1 balance? Since the enemy colony already starts off with a whole bunch of media way before the player, wouldn't making media even better at gathering technically give them more of a head start than they already have?

 

[HofNerd]

This would for sure be helpful for 3.2, but what would it do to 3.1 balance? Since the enemy colony already starts off with a whole bunch of media way before the player, wouldn't making media even better at gathering technically give them more of a head start than they already have?

Perhaps... But re-balancing the leafcutter missions is also on the developers' todo list, but logically that can only be done once the unit balancing is done. (As changes made in balancing units can unbalance missions, but missions can't unbalanace units.)

I remember I had a lot of difficulty at first with winning the leafcutter mission 3.1 on medium difficulty. I remember that I built lots of media, because the leafcutter media were the 'staple harvesters'. But unfortunately, media are neither the best economy unit nor the best combat unit. Instead being the 2nd best at both, but lacking a role of their own.

I still wonder sometimes if the cut&carry idea I had a long time ago might be interesting to use. Where the idea is to have leafcutter media perform the role of cutting leaf, but instead of carrying it they would drop it under the plant for minor workers to pick them up. This 2 step harvesting would not only boost leafcutter gathering rate to get on-par with non-leafcutters, but it would also give the leafcutter media its own niche as it can cut leaf the best of all 3 castes.
This would make the roles of leafcutters as follows:
Minor ant: Nest jobs, getting the nest started and carrying leaves from harvesting sites to the nest.
Media ant: Cuts leaves at harvesting sites.
Major ant: Combat.

 

[TheRexYo]

Perhaps... But re-balancing the leafcutter missions is also on the developers' todo list, but logically that can only be done once the unit balancing is done. (As changes made in balancing units can unbalance missions, but missions can't unbalanace units.)

I remember I had a lot of difficulty at first with winning the leafcutter mission 3.1 on medium difficulty. I remember that I built lots of media, because the leafcutter media were the 'staple harvesters'. But unfortunately, media are neither the best economy unit nor the best combat unit. Instead being the 2nd best at both, but lacking a role of their own.

I still wonder sometimes if the cut&carry idea I had a long time ago might be interesting to use. Where the idea is to have leafcutter media perform the role of cutting leaf, but instead of carrying it they would drop it under the plant for minor workers to pick them up. This 2 step harvesting would not only boost leafcutter gathering rate to get on-par with non-leafcutters, but it would also give the leafcutter media its own niche as it can cut leaf the best of all 3 castes.
This would make the roles of leafcutters as follows:
Minor ant: Nest jobs, getting the nest started and carrying leaves from harvesting sites to the nest.
Media ant: Cuts leaves at harvesting sites.
Major ant: Combat.

I think this is a good idea, but it needs some more planning. For starters, Leafcutter Medias are the only Leafcutters that can carry leaves without a speed drop. This alone wasn't enough to make them viable, but taking it away by preventing them from gathering leaves would be problematic. Instead, why not have it so that Leafcutter Medias can cut extra leaves, then carry one of them back home?
Also, Medias are classified as an offensive melee combat unit. Perhaps they should be either (A) recategorized as a worker or (B) buffed in some way to make them stronger in combat. My suggestion for the latter would be to greatly increase their "Piercing" stat, so they can (mostly) ignore the armor of the large creatures they encounter in the jungle missions and in Freeplay.

 

[TheRexYo]

With the next beta patch I would like to run a unit balance pass. I am already going to make changes to leafcutter media and army ant media however I was wondering if people felt strongly about other units.

Additionally what do you think would improve them (including the two mentioned above)?

You guys really don't wanna give Wood Ant Melees any love, do you? XD

They do almost no damage and their HP is only slightly better than a Black Ant's, and for the same cost!

 

[TheRexYo]

I would suggest a decent bit more attack damage for leaf cutter media, to incentivize building more media for the purpose of damage dealing, and then building majors to do the tanking. As of right now, majors fill the role of both primary damage dealer and tank. That's fine, since it is realistic.

However, I think that media could still do with a damage buff, since dealing damage is probably the leaf cutter's biggest area of weakness. The level of difficulty of 3.1 and 3.2 is a significant bit higher than 2.1 and 2.2, and maybe giving media more damage would help make the level feel fairer to newer players, as insect spawns would be easier to deal with. The same goes for free play.

If you don't want to possibly throw off the balance of 3.1 and 3.2 too much, one option is to only give leaf cutter media a decent attack damage buff at level 3 only, since it is unlikely people will upgrade their ants in 3.1 and 3.2. And I think this would work well with the challenge modes on 3.1 and 3.2, since I feel like there should be more benefits to upgrading leaf cutters to level 3 on these levels.

Armor. If they ignored armor, they'd be stronger against the larger enemies in their levels and they'd have a niche as foragers/hunters in Freeplay.

 

[TheRexYo]

Suggestion: Slightly faster attack mode switching for wood ant rapid fire. At the moment wood ant rapid fire take quite some time to get ready to fire and needs to re-enter the attack mode after it lost its original target. Due to the nature of wood ant rapid fire their time switching is relatively long compared to mortars. Giving rapid fire a slightly faster switch to attack mode could bring them closer to the power of wood ant mortars when fighting large groups of weaker enemies.

Or they should just nerf Mortars, since they're the best unit in the game once upgraded.

 

[TheRexYo]

Suggestion: Slightly shorter bite reach for wood ant melee. This to make them useful in non-ranged builds with other small ants (black ant, AA media, etc). The shorter attack reach makes them get closer than other melee units, causing enemies to target them first.

Oh, please no. There's an easier way, Hof. The stat sheet has a "Threat" value that increases the likelihood of them being chosen as targets. Just increase that if you want them to be attacked first.

 

[TheRexYo]

I am going to go through all these posts tomorrow morning and make some dicisions. Will probably be streaming it so I look forward to a chat!

Can I get an approximate time? I live in the US so it's usually rather annoying to get into the streams on time. I always miss them.

 

[HofNerd]

I think this is a good idea, but it needs some more planning. For starters, Leafcutter Medias are the only Leafcutters that can carry leaves without a speed drop. This alone wasn't enough to make them viable, but taking it away by preventing them from gathering leaves would be problematic. Instead, why not have it so that Leafcutter Medias can cut extra leaves, then carry one of them back home?

I am not suggesting media lose the ability to bring back leaves to the nest. Instead I am suggesting to add in an option for a pheromone group for their ants to drop any leaf carried once the ant has climbed back down a plant. So the ant can climb back up again and harvest some more.

If leafcutter media can cut leaves, drop them immediately after climbing down, climb back up again and repeat. Then they do not need a speed boost to be a viable unit anymore. Instead they become a powerful economic unit when working together with leafcutter minor ants. The media cut size 15 leaf chunks and the minor ants have the numbers to very quickly return the leaves to the nest. Basically making the minor ants carry leaf sizes as though they were media.

For example, if 1 media and 5 minor ants are harvesting, then the ants bring back 5 * 15 = 75 (number of minor ants * media cut size) with a speed loss instead of 15 + 7 * 5 = 50 (media cut size + minor ant cut size * number of minor ants). The advantage of separate cutting and carrying becomes even greater over longer distances, as the number of minor ants per media increases.