[Feedback Request] Unit Balance

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
Oh, please no. There's an easier way, Hof. The stat sheet has a "Threat" value that increases the likelihood of them being chosen as targets. Just increase that if you want them to be attacked first.
Isn't threath value only used by wood ant ranged to help decide what to target first?
 

TheRexYo

Queen
Isn't threath value only used by wood ant ranged to help decide what to target first?
I can't really guarantee it without developer approval, but I can explain why I think it does what I said. There's a tooltip somewhere in the game (I think it shows either during Foricarium Mission 3.1 as a tip or as the tech tree description for Majors as a whole) that tells you about how Leafcutter Majors are more likely to be targeted by enemies due to their size. Since the Majors have a threat value (which is also the only stat they have with a name that fits the description), I can bet that's what it is.
 

TheRexYo

Queen
I am not suggesting media lose the ability to bring back leaves to the nest. Instead I am suggesting to add in an option for a pheromone group for their ants to drop any leaf carried once the ant has climbed back down a plant. So the ant can climb back up again and harvest some more.

If leafcutter media can cut leaves, drop them immediately after climbing down, climb back up again and repeat. Then they do not need a speed boost to be a viable unit anymore. Instead they become a powerful economic unit when working together with leafcutter minor ants. The media cut size 15 leaf chunks and the minor ants have the numbers to very quickly return the leaves to the nest. Basically making the minor ants carry leaf sizes as though they were media.

For example, if 1 media and 5 minor ants are harvesting, then the ants bring back 5 * 15 = 75 (number of minor ants * media cut size) with a speed loss instead of 15 + 7 * 5 = 50 (media cut size + minor ant cut size * number of minor ants). The advantage of separate cutting and carrying becomes even greater over longer distances, as the number of minor ants per media increases.
I see what you're saying. I agree with your idea. However, I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how many ants can harvest a plant at once. This would limit the usage of Media to that amount, since they would have to stay on the plant to harvest it. I remember hearing that the upcoming titan-climbing features have a certain ratio of ants climb and the rest stay on the ground. Why not have it so that a percentage of the Medias will stay while the rest gather food normally? That way, the flow of gatherers will continue and there will be a reason to build more Medias.

Also, again - Medias are terrible in combat. I've already said this, but they should get a near-maximum 'piercing' stat so that they can effectively deal full damage to targets regardless of armor. This would make them viable against larger foes (most enemies in the Leafcutter levels fit in this category, particularly Spiny Devils and Whip Spiders) since most large insects have armor. This attribute would make sense and would make them much more viable in combat. Since they do low damage at present, it shouldn't make them unbalanced, either.
 

MedinB

Colony
With the next beta patch I would like to run a unit balance pass. I am already going to make changes to leafcutter media and army ant media however I was wondering if people felt strongly about other units.

Additionally what do you think would improve them (including the two mentioned above)?
If prices changes. I will need to get used to it. Please don't change the price if really needed.
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
Well there's one thing I think we can all agree on: army ant media don't really need changes. If they get nerfed, the other foot insane will become impossible. And they're already a one man show for the other foot level on insane, and spamming them only is probably the most effective way to beat the level, so buffing them is clearly unnecessary.
 

TheRexYo

Queen
Well there's one thing I think we can all agree on: army ant media don't really need changes. If they get nerfed, the other foot insane will become impossible. And they're already a one man show for the other foot level on insane, and spamming them only is probably the most effective way to beat the level, so buffing them is clearly unnecessary.
Don't forget - they're available to play as in Freeplay now. That means the developers need to consider them as a full-on playable unit. They've gone beyond their dreary existence as exhibition ants for an Extra Level or two.
EDIT: You're not necessarily wrong, by the way. Just wanted to put it out there that they've finally joined the others in the competitive ant scene, so they should be treated as such.
 

TheRexYo

Queen
If prices changes. I will need to get used to it. Please don't change the price if really needed.
Er, Medin. These aren't exactly standard units, so you shouldn't be used to their price anyway (unless you play a LOT of 3.2). Neither of the two types mentioned are available in the standard Formicarium. Leafcutter Medias also desperately need a buff. Also, if the prices change, hopefully it won't take long for everyone to get used to it. If changes are needed, they're needed. Besides, the more viable units to pick from, the more fun combinations you can come up with! :D
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
Don't forget - they're available to play as in Freeplay now. That means the developers need to consider them as a full-on playable unit. They've gone beyond their dreary existence as exhibition ants for an Extra Level or two.
EDIT: You're not necessarily wrong, by the way. Just wanted to put it out there that they've finally joined the others in the competitive ant scene, so they should be treated as such.
definitely true.
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
lso, again - Medias are terrible in combat. I've already said this, but they should get a near-maximum 'piercing' stat so that they can effectively deal full damage to targets regardless of armor. This would make them viable against larger foes (most enemies in the Leafcutter levels fit in this category, particularly Spiny Devils and Whip Spiders) since most large insects have armor.
This made me look things up on the stat sheet and wonder, what is the Armour stat used for? UberBeachTigerBeetle1 and RooveBeetleA1 have 2 armour and leafcutter media have 0.2, 0.4 and 0.8 armour.
I know physical resistance is used to reduce incoming damage by a given percentage. But what does armour do?
 

TheRexYo

Queen
This made me look things up on the stat sheet and wonder, what is the Armour stat used for? UberBeachTigerBeetle1 and RooveBeetleA1 have 2 armour and leafcutter media have 0.2, 0.4 and 0.8 armour.
I know physical resistance is used to reduce incoming damage by a given percentage. But what does armour do?
Reducing the damage taken by an attack by a flat amount. (I think)
 
Last edited:

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
Reducing the damage taken by an attack by a flat amount. (I think)
But does it reduce it to a minimum of 0 or a minimum of 1? Easy way to find out would be to attack a lvl 3 leafcutter media with a lvl 1 wood ant melee. (0.8 armour vs 0.5 attack)
 

JohnSlugDisco

Administrator
Staff member
Developer of EotU
Well there's one thing I think we can all agree on: army ant media don't really need changes. If they get nerfed, the other foot insane will become impossible. And they're already a one man show for the other foot level on insane, and spamming them only is probably the most effective way to beat the level, so buffing them is clearly unnecessary.
I didn't know they were that powerful. You are not referring to the Majors are you? You definitely mean the media?
 

HofNerd

Colony
Beta Tester
Extremely Helpful Person
I didn't know they were that powerful. You are not referring to the Majors are you? You definitely mean the media?
Army ant media are actually quite powerful for their cost.
For comparison, the AA media combatPower / (tileCost+upgrade) for each level is:
lvl 1: 2.93
lvl 2: 3.15
lvl 3: 4.13
Compared to black ants:
lvl 1: 3.6
lvl 2: 2.64
lvl 3: 3.29

And the AA media combatPower / spawncost for each level is:
lvl 1: 30
lvl 2: 84.48
lvl 3: 235.2
Compared to black ants:
lvl 1: 36
lvl 2: 52.8
lvl 3: 98.56
 

MedinB

Colony
Army ant media are actually quite powerful for their cost.
For comparison, the AA media combatPower / (tileCost+upgrade) for each level is:
lvl 1: 2.93
lvl 2: 3.15
lvl 3: 4.13
Compared to black ants:
lvl 1: 3.6
lvl 2: 2.64
lvl 3: 3.29

And the AA media combatPower / spawncost for each level is:
lvl 1: 30
lvl 2: 84.48
lvl 3: 235.2
Compared to black ants:
lvl 1: 36
lvl 2: 52.8
lvl 3: 98.56
Wow!
 

Buffalo981

Queen
Extremely Helpful Person
I didn't know they were that powerful. You are not referring to the Majors are you? You definitely mean the media?

Yeah I'm talking about the media. It's kind of unexpected, but it seems like spamming them and upgrading them to level 3 is the only way to beat TOF on insane. Just look up The Other Foot insane on youtube if you want to see it for yourself. I probably took dozens of tries using a combination of units, including trap jaw spam, with no success, but I beat the level on just my second try of using an army ant media spam strategy.

Using all the available units, all the difficulties below insane aren't that bad. I guess insane just pushes the limits of what is beatable.

Edit: I'm specifically referring to the beginning sections of the other foot on insane (the insect waves), which seem to only be beatable by spamming army ant media. Of course when the army ant majors are unlocked, they have to be built in order to kill the enemy colony.
 
Last edited:

TheRexYo

Queen
But does it reduce it to a minimum of 0 or a minimum of 1? Easy way to find out would be to attack a lvl 3 leafcutter media with a lvl 1 wood ant melee. (0.8 armour vs 0.5 attack)
There is no minimum damage (except maybe 0). Wood Ant Melees deal 0.5 on their own, so why would it be 1? XD

EDIT: I was wrong. I missed the first half of today's stream, and now that I've re-watched it he explained that the minimum is 0.5 damage.
 
Last edited:
Top