3.X Insane Strategy Development

[Rayalot72]

I plan to make this the thread for figuring out the new levels in insane difficulty.

I'd recommend people not start in insane, but medium and hard to learn the levels. I'll also probably give it a few days for people to play the levels and develop their own strategies, as there's a lot that's still not known as far as optimal play goes.

Things that need to be worked on:

Leafcutter Mechanics:

What ants are best for which roles, and what mix of them is best for certain tasks?

Are S majors (stun) or T majors (taunt) better in certain scenarios?

Creature Mechanics:

What can each creature do, and what is the best way to counter them?

Where and when do they appear in levels, and how can that effect play?

Routing the Levels:

In what order should you do things in each level? What are some ways to end up in the best possible condition at different points in the mission?

What are the best nest layouts?

Which unit mix and major choice best matches what the levels expect of you?

How can you interact with the win conditions to improve your chances of winning?

___

These seem to be the most brutal insane levels we've gotten so far. Early investigation suggests that at least one of them is quite beatable, while the other might take much longer to puzzle out.

Hard for both levels is known to be beatable.

 

[Dionaea]

I keep getting defeated in the first leafcutter level, (on normal difficulty) The other colony just outbreeds me so if anyone has any good tips on that, that would be welcome, thus far I had a the medium and the workers in 1 group to harvest leaves whilst slowly trying to breed the Major ants to be able to chase the other colony's ants away from harvesting grounds, but by the time I had a mere 6 Majors they had allready harvested double the amount of leaves I had and after some skirmishes my Majors where always beaten. I ended up deciding to send My Majors with my Medium ants to their nest together to completely halt the AI from harvesting whilst workers would slowly harvest leaves.

After initial success all of a sudden they completely swarmed my small fighting force with a crazy amount of medium and major ants And I quit as they completely out harvested me and I had run out of food

 

[Guy Fieri]

I played both levels on easy, the one strategy that's made the levels really simple is to send out very large amounts of minors out early on and then switch over to media and eventually majors.

 

[Balanite]

For 3.1 Insane, I've tried going workers spam, mediums spam and workers + majors only. The most success I had still required a mix of the three. I haven't tried upgrading the majors to level 3s yet. Tried both stun and taunt, don't know which is better yet.

Managed to get a little over 12k (and overtook the enemy a little) but that triggered the other leafcutter nest to send its infinite waves after me instead, combined with an army of trapjaws and a bunch of predator insects. I'll try again tomorrow.

My strategy involved getting about 30 worker ants as soon as possible, then getting about 20 mediums and 3-4 majors. On the surface, try to avoid fighting predators as much as possible (as you don't get food to make up for your losses) and try to get the big 200+ leaves plants closer to the enemy nest. Harass their harvesting operation often as they'll always win if you leave them alone. I'm following this guy's advice:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/463530/discussions/0/1679190184060292517/

Near the end I kept about 100 food in reserve, and had about 50 workers, 35 mediums and 18 majors. I suspect some luck is required to win because that game I did well in had the AI wasting a lot of time sending their horde against an adult mantis, and went for the far left side plants first instead of those in the center.

 

[Mr_Ced]

I honestly cannot wait to play!

 

[Rayalot72]

Welcome back!

Near the end I kept about 100 food in reserve, and had about 50 workers, 35 mediums and 18 majors. I suspect some luck is required to win because that game I did well in had the AI wasting a lot of time sending their horde against an adult mantis, and went for the far left side plants first instead of those in the center.

This was something I noticed while beta testing hard. I'd practically always lose if the AI made good decisions, but if they got screwed on that one patch south of them it became far more comfortable.

My strategy involved getting about 30 worker ants as soon as possible, then getting about 20 mediums and 3-4 majors. On the surface, try to avoid fighting predators as much as possible (as you don't get food to make up for your losses) and try to get the big 200+ leaves plants closer to the enemy nest. Harass their harvesting operation often as they'll always win if you leave them alone. I'm following this guy's advice:

I feel like I need to test whether minors or media, on their own, are more efficient harvesters. I sort of assumed 7 vs 15 and a slow effect might make the media equally efficient, but I'm starting to think that minors are actually better when there aren't any enemies.

 

[Guy Fieri]

For 3.1 Insane, I've tried going workers spam, mediums spam and workers + majors only. The most success I had still required a mix of the three. I haven't tried upgrading the majors to level 3s yet. Tried both stun and taunt, don't know which is better yet.

Managed to get a little over 12k (and overtook the enemy a little) but that triggered the other leafcutter nest to send its infinite waves after me instead, combined with an army of trapjaws and a bunch of predator insects. I'll try again tomorrow.

My strategy involved getting about 30 worker ants as soon as possible, then getting about 20 mediums and 3-4 majors. On the surface, try to avoid fighting predators as much as possible (as you don't get food to make up for your losses) and try to get the big 200+ leaves plants closer to the enemy nest. Harass their harvesting operation often as they'll always win if you leave them alone. I'm following this guy's advice:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/463530/discussions/0/1679190184060292517/

Near the end I kept about 100 food in reserve, and had about 50 workers, 35 mediums and 18 majors. I suspect some luck is required to win because that game I did well in had the AI wasting a lot of time sending their horde against an adult mantis, and went for the far left side plants first instead of those in the center.

I only had one small skirmish with the opposing leafcutters but still won. I was on easy mode though.

 

[Rayalot72]

3.2 it seems as if you need to speedrun the level in order to win. Enemy difficulty ramps up super fast, so your food is very limited and if you take too long there won't be enough army ants to actually win (assuming you can make it through the first two lanes).

 

[Balanite]

Finally found a strategy that worked in 3.1 Insane, but I think luck played a big part as I said above. I didn't record this run though, so I'll have to do it again later.

Firstly, the ratio of workers to warriors to majors should about about 10:10:2. In most of my failed runs earlier, I made too many workers and their attrition rate ultimately were too much for my colony.

For the successful run, I spammed workers only until I got about 30 of them, then started building warriors to help fend off the stray jumping spider, cricket or beetle that harassed my supply train. I ended this run with about 70 workers, 70 warriors and 11 stun-majors. I found the stun upgrade is much better than taunt for this scenario, since you need the majors to do damage instead of tank. Another thing I found extremely useful is to keep attack OFF on your workers, so they will keep gathering even when your warriors/majors are fighting off the AI colony and other predators. I assigned the worker only group to 1, and warriors and majors to 2. Both groups will travel everywhere together for 90% of the time. Inside the nest, I find having about 14 workers (including those you start with) purely on egg replacement duty should be fine.

Jumping Spiders: before you started spawning warriors, these are extremely annoying. They will spawn camp your nest entrance sometimes, but shouldn't kill your run by themselves alone. Once you have majors and warriors, they cease to be any threat whatsoever and can be ignored.

Crickets & young Mantises: mid-game threats, also threatening before you get about 3+ majors. Adult Mantises are best avoided, you can't kill them without a significant army i.e. 30+ warriors and 7+ majors.

Trap-Jaw Ants: one of the two REAL challenges in 3.1 Insane. They will cut your supply train in half. Try to avoid them if you can, and micro your train away from their route so they bother the enemy instead. Sometimes it's better to have your ants wait by your nest entrance while they cross the map before you go on another trip. By mid-game, you should build up a reserve of 100+ food so your warriors/majors all dying on you from aggro-ing and fighting them won't end the run.

AI Leaf-Cutters: the other REAL challenge. Firstly, they should be ahead of you for the majority of the run. Them being ahead by 1000-2000 is OKAY, you should be able to catch up by mid to late game. The important point is to note that you cannot contest any gathering area more than once before they overwhelm you. What I do therefore is to gather in the same spot they do,while avoid confronting them until the gathering area is almost out of food. Then I immediately move over and bully them out of the area, gathering all the remaining food. When the enemy reinforcements return in force, there is no food left and they sit there looking stupid.

By about 11000-12000 food, their side of the map should be stripped bare of leaves and they can't win unless they cross to my side of the map, which should be mostly untouched. At which point, the AI will start sending waves of 20+ majors at you. This WILL end your run unless you have a significant force to fend them off, and this is why you shouldn't build too many workers and neglect building warriors. Turn your workers to attack ON again to help out a little, and hurry your army back to your nest entrance until you fought them off.

For nest layout, keep your leaf storage zone right by your entrance, the refuse deposit zone along the top edge one empty space away from everything else, and fill everywhere else full of worker/warrior/major eggs. Your eggs double as fungus production, so make sure to build some eggs close to the leaf storage. It should look like a triangle where the three corners are the leaf storage, the eggs, and then the refuse area.

 

[TerrificTimmeh]

That's pretty much what I've been doing but just falling short at the end. I've been spamming workers until about 27 - hopefully I can get this done and put a video up so you can see my crazy unconventional base layout. Then I just spam medea ants. When I'm closer to 30-40 I spawn a few major. Unless there's quite a few annoying bugs on my walking paths - then I spawn 2 majors earlier (normally not before 20 medea). The first night seems fairly chilled so I turn combat off - except 1 game I got camped by a shiny beetle. Wasn't cool. If I fall 3k food behind I can never seem to catch up/get close again so I've been quitting those games early now to get more time on it. Some games the spawns are horrid so you just have to take them as they come and definitely agree luck seems to be involved. Last game just played one of the spiders at the start just darted for my opening as my 7 ants exited and killed them all. His path seemed across my opening for that whole game so my start was really slow and I just couldn't recover. Another I've had one of the shiny beetles basically path across my base at night (literally walk across the front of my base back and forth) which also just murdered the difference in food putting me well behind. It's just the law of the undergrowth.
Taking food from areas they are before engaging them is definitely worth it. Not taking all of the food on your side of the map is also necessary. The more you can take on their side early, the better. But also need to factor in taking leaves on your side of the map for faster food return to build numbers.
Good to know it is do-able so I will throw away any of the doubtful thoughts that were bugging me

 

[Rayalot72]

By about 11000-12000 food, their side of the map should be stripped bare of leaves and they can't win unless they cross to my side of the map, which should be mostly untouched.

Interesting. Do you end up stripping the huge plants in the north-east corner as well? I usually lose when they start getting over there, as there's simply so much to harvest.

 

[Balanite]

Just beaten 3.1 Insane again and recorded it this time. I actually did a little worse than last time, so it was a closer run than I liked.

Good to know it is do-able so I will throw away any of the doubtful thoughts that were bugging me

Looking forward to seeing your successful run! I hope mine give you some ideas to beat it the way you like it. Yeah those spiders are annoying early game, you got to make sure no stray ants lure them to sit right on your entrance. I usually start by taking the two big plants on the left side of the entrance, before heading down the center. I make sure to go northeast soon afterwards to make sure the enemy can't win just by harvesting those 1000+ food plants.

Interesting. Do you end up stripping the huge plants in the north-east corner as well? I usually lose when they start getting over there, as there's simply so much to harvest.

Yeah, those ones are critical. The key is to avoid confronting them (and causing them to retreat only to come back in strength) as long as possible, while harvesting as much as you can. If you make them retreat with only a few 100s food remaining in the area you're contesting, that would be perfect.

Just failed an attempt at 3.2 Insane, will try again in a couple days. I managed to kill the adult and the two smaller whip spiders on night 2 at great cost but couldn't survive the day after, lol. The ratio of 1:1 for workers and warriors still works well there.

 

[Rayalot72]

Just failed an attempt at 3.2 Insane, will try again in a couple days. I managed to kill the adult and the two smaller whip spiders on night 2 at great cost but couldn't survive the day after, lol. The ratio of 1:1 for workers and warriors still works well there.

I can actually make it past a few days quite easily, but I have a serious problem with the environment killing all of the army ants, and then the last two lanes being totally impassible.

 

[Dionaea]

I can actually make it past a few days quite easily, but I have a serious problem with the environment killing all of the army ants, and then the last two lanes being totally impassible.

The environment feels like a cheap ai cheat script to be honest, as soon as I start doing ok and it seems like I'll be able to push back the army ants, the environment goes crazy with super strong predators killing all my ants before I have a chance to get a grasp on things and get my ants to safety

 

[MikeSlugDisco]

Nicely done Balanite. I watched your playthrough with great interest - it involved a much higher APM than most players of this game are used to (by design). I've put some social media posts out about the first documented defeating of 3.1 insane. GG!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122583402153152512

 

[TerrificTimmeh]

I also only just figured out holding ctrl shows food remaining on plants. That is probably a contribution to my failings. Also; congrats Balanite. Your vid definitely helps if you couldn't tell by my first sentence

 

[JohnSlugDisco]

I also only just figured out holding ctrl shows food remaining on plants. That is probably a contribution to my failings. Also; congrats Balanite. Your vid definitely helps if you couldn't tell by my first sentence

Yea we unfortunately did not add in a message about this in time. Really do need to make some hot keys explicit or include a UI icon for them so peopl can find it

 

[Balanite]

3.2 it seems as if you need to speedrun the level in order to win. Enemy difficulty ramps up super fast, so your food is very limited and if you take too long there won't be enough army ants to actually win (assuming you can make it through the first two lanes).

Ugh, double adult leaf mantis ambushes are killing my runs on 3.2 Insane.

Tried 10 worker : 20 warrior : 2 major ratio and doing better, yet the attrition rates are still making me lose even with 600+ food in reserve, 30 workers 60 warriors and 7 majors. And the adult whip spider camping at your entrance stop you from harvesting at night 2+ onwards. Probably need to rush as you said, or maybe get a lot more majors.

 

[TerrificTimmeh]

Ugh, double adult leaf mantis ambushes are killing my runs on 3.2 Insane.

Tried 10 worker : 20 warrior : 2 major ratio and doing better, yet the attrition rates are still making me lose even with 600+ food in reserve, 30 workers 60 warriors and 7 majors. And the adult whip spider camping at your entrance stop you from harvesting at night 2+ onwards. Probably need to rush as you said, or maybe get a lot more majors.

Don't spam majors but you might need them early to contest the centre and bleed their workers to manage the enemy ant bar. Speed rush it. I'm fine with the adult whip spider on night two - my problem is getting the enemy ant bar to be manageable. I'm comfortably getting to day 3 and ol' one eye (biggun whip spider) cops a flogging every game no problemo. I just can't bring the ant bar down so I need to change it up a bit. Definitely rush because I comfortably survive to day 4 and you can't contest any area there are too many enemies even for a 50 medea 25 major army with 1200 food reserve. It sucked losing that one but I 100% believe this is a rush level.

 

[Rayalot72]

I would definitely increase your major composition after the initial stages of the game, when you establish enough media to collect food and you've gotten through some of the nearer plants. They're necessary to take on the early quantity of L creatures and the H whip spider.

I'm starting to think T majors are better for this level than S majors, just because there's a limited number of stunable creatures w/ threatening abilities (only really good against M bush crickets and B rove beetles), the heal from the taunt can help to keep majors alive against army ants for longer (while reducing media and minor losses), and taunt gives a slight edge vs. L mantises, since their devour cannot be used against majors.