Ant Subclasses

[Redmoth27]

Ant subclasses are classes for certain ants that give special abilities. For example, let's use the black ant, the 2 subclasses that you unlock when your ants are level 3 are armored and rammer. Armored as the name suggests is a more heavy version of the black ant, but the more damage it gives to enemies the more rapid its attacks become. It will then go on a powerful burst and then explode! It will do tons of splash damage and usually kill all the enemies it was attacking. They cost 15 food to respawn so you want to keep them in small packs of 5 to 8. The armored is good for crowd control and can stand lots of punishment.

The rammer is a much lighter and faster ant, it does just above the same amount of damage as a standard level 2 but does more and more damage the faster it goes. When running long distances the rammers damage and speed start to build up, and when it hits its target it can be 6x more powerful than a level 3. Rammers are good against large insects from hermit crabs to spiders and cost as much to respawn as a regular soldier. You would want to have 20 to 50 because they have 20% less health than a level 3, but they will wipe the floor just like the armored. ;D

 

[Mr_Ced]

Does this relate to natural situations in the natural world?

 

[Serafine]

Not really. There is a Camponotus species that can blow it's head off and spill toxic glue all over the place but there is no ant that goes into a frenzy when wounded (ants do not feel pain so this wouldn't even be possible).

If you want tanks just take any large ant like Camponotus (they can grow to 18mm which is larger than a tiger beetle), Atta soldiers (they can grow to the size of a tiger beetle) or even larger ones like certain Myrmecia bull ants (some of them can reach sizes of up to 40mm which is almost three times the size of a tiger beetle).

There are no ramming ants. Ants are so tiny that they cannot build up enough momentum to actually achieve anything with a ram. Also they are capable of withstanding forces of more than 5000 times their own weight, so unless they're hit by a supersonic fly it's unlikely they'll take any damage at all.

 

[Redmoth27]

I made this post because the game needs some depth! I'm not talking a matter of realism, I'm just trying to think of a way to make the game more interesting. Also, ants feel pain just after the fact like say they lose a leg they can feel that they're hurt.

 

[The vegetarian ant]

They can feel they're wounded but can't feel pain, they have nerves and synapses for a kinetic memory as every animals/insects but they do not have anything for feeling pain consider one ant in a colony as a cell in your organism

 

[Kahldris]

Cool idea however i myself am in favor of realism with this game...

 

[Redmoth27]

Hey, The vegetarian ant why does everyone say an ant colony is like an organism? Maybe its just me but it kinda sounds stupid and when I explain it that way to a person they seem to care less about ants? ???

 

[Buffalo981]

Everyone says ant colonies are like an organism because they actually are like an organism. A single ant can't survive for long at all. It must work together almost flawlessly in a highly evolved manner in order to survive and the rest of the colony to survive. If one part of the colony goes wrong, the entire colony can collapse. Similarly in an organism, if there is an organ failure, for example, it will die in the natural world.

 

[Serafine]

This actually goes so far that an Atta leafcutter queen that raises the wrong ratio of workers in her first batch is doomed (she needs different workers to do all the colony's tasks - tiny gardeners that care for the fungus, slightly bigger workers that pre-chew leaves for the tiny workers and care for the brood, even bigger workers that cut the leaves into small pieces and even bigger workers to forage and cut leaves from nearby plants). If she fails to breed one class the entire production chain collapses and the colony dies.

Also certain ants (most notably fire ants) can act like a fluid in big groups.

 

[Redmoth27]

Wait which argument are you on Serafine?

 

[Serafine]

The fact that ants work like a single organism.

This however differs from species to species - primitive ants like Nothomyrmecia barely qualify as a team (every ant hunts on it's own and they don't even really bother caring for their queen) while leafcutters show the greatest degree of complexity and specialization with a different ant caste for literally every task (guarding the colony, cutting leaves, transporting leaves, cutting leaves into pieces, cutting leaves into small pieces and disinfecting them, cutting leaves into even smaller pieces, caring for the brood, munching leave bits into paste and caring for the fungus).
There are also ants that can act as a fluid or gel due to simple interactions of their workers, fire ants for example (and most of the army ants like Dorylus and Eciton): https://youtu.be/eMOr8yypO5w

Also there's a ton of really weird and unique ants with strange abilities out there - we don't need to resort to fantasy jumaji rhino ants.
Cataglyphis silver ants are ridiculously fast, Camponotus, Myrmecia and Ponerines are ridiculously though, there are ants that can explode, ants that have extremely powerful chemical deterrents (Solenopsis thief ants, winter ants), ants that can walk around at -20°C (Prenolepis imparis winter ants), ants that can build bridges or rafts with their own bodies (Solenopsis fire ants, Formica rufa wood ants, Dorylus and Eciton army ants, Anoplolepis yellow crazy ants - this is actually a rather common ant ability), ants that have snapping trapjaws they can even use to catapult themselves away from danger with a quick backflip (Odontomachus trapjaw ants), ants that can store massive amounts of food in specialized baloony workers (Myrmecocystus honeypot ants, Prenolepis false honeypot ants), ants that can fold tree leaves to nests by using their larvae as living glue guns (Oecephylla tree ants, the uncontested rulers of tree crowns from Africa to Australia), a whole battery of ants that lives as parasites in other ant colonies or use their colonies as starting point by killing their queen and taking her role (Formica rufa, Lasius umbratus, Lasius fuliginosus, Camponotus universitates) and much more (even ridiculous stuff like the prehistoric "unicorn ants" with their tusk-like hollow mandibles that were used like a drinking straw to suck out fleshy grubs).

It will take a very long time to use all the stuff nature has to offer before we have to resort to fantasy ants.


And yes, the game needs some depth - but I'd rather add that depth to the economical aspects of the game which currently suffer from a severe underdevelopment. Ant colonies are complex machineries with large production chains (this is especially true for leafcutters) and the game has barely touched that subject at all.
Stuff like splitting the food currency into sugars (colony maintenance) and protein (required to grow brood) would be a start and it would already allow for a lot more strategy than the game currently has to offer. Also workers having to actually feed larvae would be a nice thing and prevent the ridiculous "soldier only" builds we currently see with both Formica fusca and Formica rufa colonies.

 

[Mr_Ced]

I agree with everything Serafine said. I would add one thing: no building costs. Instead you would need to constantly feed the brood using the queen at first then the workers for mature colonies. The brood if they don't get food, quit growing and slowly die. The queen will lay eggs, but they will not mature into larva until they are needed. (I am aware that this will lead to balance issues)

 

[Redmoth27]

Actually now I agree with you, Serafine. I never saw it that way!

 

[Scorpinator]

Well, its true the game needs more different ants.. I know the leafcutter is coming soon, but its still not enough. I don't think its actually that hard to make new ants. The hardest fact is that the game can break more or less because the new ones could break the balance. Though, they already have the codes for the ants, so implementing new visuals and altering some codes or give it something extra can't be that hard right?

Just some ideas to alter ants and make more species in a quicker way:
- Red fiery ants: A little more damage output in general, less defense (Agility stays the same)
- Carpenter ants: bigger, a ferocious bite, but very slow in damage dealing and slower in general. 1 carpenter can carry food that 2 ants can carry because they are slower and bigger.
- Carebara atoma or in general tiny ants: Faster movement, less damage output. (Great for gathering food fast, less good in fighting) (maybe lesser cost to make?)
- Flying ants: can fly over obstacles in the open world. (But i think its too soon for this option, we have no enemy that can kill flying creatures yet. ) Downside of this, it can't attack while in the air, so shooting enemies will be his downfall.

The point i'm trying to make = Slight balance changes in base stats, can alter the game on many ways. Not adding, new ants in general but copy the colony base codes, alter it a little bit, test it and bring it out. You can change them afterwards for balancing reasons. Adding different colonies that vary in cost, damage output, mobility and defense makes you play every colony different and if you have more game modes, choosing the right colony will give you more advantage over others.

My 5 cents..

 

[Serafine]

Though, they already have the codes for the ants, so implementing new visuals and altering some codes or give it something extra can't be that hard right?

You have no idea HOW MUCH TIME it takes to make all those meshes, animations, textures, lightning and stuff. While it may not be a completely fair comparison I do know how much it takes the graphics designers of Fractured Space to make a SINGLE one of their space ship models - ONE MONTH (and while they have more details they do have far less animations).
Making models takes a TON of time.

Just some ideas to alter ants and make more species in a quicker way:
- Red fiery ants: A little more damage output in general, less defense (Agility stays the same)

The "red fiery ants" already have an absolutely ridiculous damage output, to a point were the F. rufa shooters are literally breaking the game.

And Solenopsis red improted fire ants don't really do THAT much damage to other ants, their strength lies more in numbers and coordination - some ants, like Nylanderia fulva (the raspberry crazy ant, another formicine ant closer to the Lasius garden ants in size) is even completely immune to Solenopsis ant toxin and currently wreaking havoc in Florida as one of the worst invasive ants in the state.

- Carpenter ants: bigger, a ferocious bite, but very slow in damage dealing and slower in general. 1 carpenter can carry food that 2 ants can carry because they are slower and bigger.

Carpenter ants are very tanky and their large major workers are ridiculously good at killing other ants. Three Camponotus majors can take out an entire Lasius garden ant nest containing several hundred workers. But they usually do not forage in large groups so their pheromone marker reaction probably needs some adjustements.

- Carebara atoma or in general tiny ants: Faster movement, less damage output. (Great for gathering food fast, less good in fighting) (maybe lesser cost to make?)

The damage output of ants doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their size. Some small ants like Solenopsis fugax thief ants have chemical deterents that are so powerful they can drive away ants hunderd times their size.
But aside from these very specialized small ants most likely don't have much gameplay values (that is in addition to the fact that you'd barely be able to see them because Solenopsis fugax workers are about as large as the eye of a Formica fusca worker).

- Flying ants: can fly over obstacles in the open world. (But i think its too soon for this option, we have no enemy that can kill flying creatures yet. ) Downside of this, it can't attack while in the air, so shooting enemies will be his downfall.

There are no flying ants aside from their queens and males which are of zero combat value (well, there are some exceptions like the Poyergus queen but those are extremely rare, even army ant queens are completely helpless without their workers).

The point i'm trying to make = Slight balance changes in base stats, can alter the game on many ways. Not adding, new ants in general but copy the colony base codes, alter it a little bit, test it and bring it out. You can change them afterwards for balancing reasons. Adding different colonies that vary in cost, damage output, mobility and defense makes you play every colony different and if you have more game modes, choosing the right colony will give you more advantage over others.

In some way we already have this with the tile upgrades (although I wouldn't mind if in the case of polymorphic ants we could just build workers of different sizes and different stats since the upgrade system doesn't really work out anyway).

However having a thousand slightly different ants won't really get you anywhere anyway. You may end up having a thousand ant types for the sake of having a thousand ant types but in the end they either all play somehow the same or there's one go-to type that is has the best cost-effectiveness ratio - a bit like Warhammer Space Marines.

I'd rather prefer FEW ants that are VASTLY DIFFERENT (in fact so different that they cannot really compete with each other because they are so vastly different, like a Warrior, an Archer, a Wizard and a Thief) over a ton of ants that all play the same (it may be a bit more difficult to achieve this with ants than with RPG classes though).

 

[Buffalo981]

I agree with Serafine about having fewer ants with more differences than many species with small stat changes. I hope leafcutters will be realistic and will be very different in playstyle compared to the Formica species, which play very similarly to each other in terms of play style.

 

[Scorpinator]

Though, they already have the codes for the ants, so implementing new visuals and altering some codes or give it something extra can't be that hard right?

You have no idea HOW MUCH TIME it takes to make all those meshes, animations, textures, lightning and stuff. While it may not be a completely fair comparison I do know how much it takes the graphics designers of Fractured Space to make a SINGLE one of their space ship models - ONE MONTH (and while they have more details they do have far less animations).
Making models takes a TON of time.

Just some ideas to alter ants and make more species in a quicker way:
- Red fiery ants: A little more damage output in general, less defense (Agility stays the same)

The "red fiery ants" already have an absolutely ridiculous damage output, to a point were the F. rufa shooters are literally breaking the game.

And Solenopsis red improted fire ants don't really do THAT much damage to other ants, their strength lies more in numbers and coordination - some ants, like Nylanderia fulva (the raspberry crazy ant, another formicine ant closer to the Lasius garden ants in size) is even completely immune to Solenopsis ant toxin and currently wreaking havoc in Florida as one of the worst invasive ants in the state.

- Carpenter ants: bigger, a ferocious bite, but very slow in damage dealing and slower in general. 1 carpenter can carry food that 2 ants can carry because they are slower and bigger.

Carpenter ants are very tanky and their large major workers are ridiculously good at killing other ants. Three Camponotus majors can take out an entire Lasius garden ant nest containing several hundred workers. But they usually do not forage in large groups so their pheromone marker reaction probably needs some adjustements.

- Carebara atoma or in general tiny ants: Faster movement, less damage output. (Great for gathering food fast, less good in fighting) (maybe lesser cost to make?)

The damage output of ants doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their size. Some small ants like Solenopsis fugax thief ants have chemical deterents that are so powerful they can drive away ants hunderd times their size.
But aside from these very specialized small ants most likely don't have much gameplay values (that is in addition to the fact that you'd barely be able to see them because Solenopsis fugax workers are about as large as the eye of a Formica fusca worker).

- Flying ants: can fly over obstacles in the open world. (But i think its too soon for this option, we have no enemy that can kill flying creatures yet. ) Downside of this, it can't attack while in the air, so shooting enemies will be his downfall.

There are no flying ants aside from their queens and males which are of zero combat value (well, there are some exceptions like the Poyergus queen but those are extremely rare, even army ant queens are completely helpless without their workers).

The point i'm trying to make = Slight balance changes in base stats, can alter the game on many ways. Not adding, new ants in general but copy the colony base codes, alter it a little bit, test it and bring it out. You can change them afterwards for balancing reasons. Adding different colonies that vary in cost, damage output, mobility and defense makes you play every colony different and if you have more game modes, choosing the right colony will give you more advantage over others.

In some way we already have this with the tile upgrades (although I wouldn't mind if in the case of polymorphic ants we could just build workers of different sizes and different stats since the upgrade system doesn't really work out anyway).

However having a thousand slightly different ants won't really get you anywhere anyway. You may end up having a thousand ant types for the sake of having a thousand ant types but in the end they either all play somehow the same or there's one go-to type that is has the best cost-effectiveness ratio - a bit like Warhammer Space Marines.

I'd rather prefer FEW ants that are VASTLY DIFFERENT (in fact so different that they cannot really compete with each other because they are so vastly different, like a Warrior, an Archer, a Wizard and a Thief) over a ton of ants that all play the same (it may be a bit more difficult to achieve this with ants than with RPG classes though).

First, i have graduated in programming. (Tho its 5years ago and haven't touched it anymore since then) So yes i know, it can take a considerate amount of time to even try and succeed a simple line of coding. What i'm saying is, if you have the base lines of a functioning ant, it can't be that hard to define some lines in a different way. You have a basis to start from. While graphics are considered mostly the same if you already have a baseline to start from. I know it can take months if you want a new and high different looking ant. But that can also be based on ants before that... Or do i over generalise?

The options i gave for more ants is based on colonies, so it can't be mixed. Choose a colony of red ants for example, they will all have more damage output, but will all have less defense. (Just giving an example to toy with baselines. The game can force you to use certain colonies to still make it challenging.

Having a colony of little ants that move super fast but are not good at combat, makes it challenging for bigger fights and workers should be really important that stay at the nest to refill larvea.. (If you make the cost lower, 10 instead of 20.. i really want to try that out.. even if there damage would be less)

btw: the examples i gave, size and more power are not intended to be true.. just an oversimplification of what i'm trying to say.

What i gave are possible solutions to alter the game in a game of more variety, not saying that the red ants SHOULD have more damage, i'm just making an example of what can be done to make more game modes.

The most important change i think has to happen first should be making A.I. ants in underground locations, to conquer a map for example. But having different ants and pushing those different playstyles to the max.

 

[ALEMAN12]

Not really. There is a Camponotus species that can blow it's head off and spill toxic glue all over the place but there is no ant that goes into a frenzy when wounded (ants do not feel pain so this wouldn't even be possible).

If you want tanks just take any large ant like Camponotus (they can grow to 18mm which is larger than a tiger beetle), Atta soldiers (they can grow to the size of a tiger beetle) or even larger ones like certain Myrmecia bull ants (some of them can reach sizes of up to 40mm which is almost three times the size of a tiger beetle).

There are no ramming ants. Ants are so tiny that they cannot build up enough momentum to actually achieve anything with a ram. Also they are capable of withstanding forces of more than 5000 times their own weight, so unless they're hit by a supersonic fly it's unlikely they'll take any damage at all.

In the antstore the write that the atto cephalotes soldier can become between 18 mm and 23 mm big just for the record i have not messured them myselt nor do I have any but in comparison to theri Queen (30mm) they look almost as big

 

[Buffalo981]

Atta cephalotes minima are usually only about 2mm, while Formica fusca workers are 5-7mm so I'm not sure if the size in game is going to be accurate. Atta cephalotes media are about 7mm so about the same size as a level 3 soldier ant currently in the game. Majors are normally about 14-18mm, making them bigger than a Formica fusca queen, which is normally 12mm. A. cephalotes queen is normally about 22mm, making it much larger than any animal currently in the game (I think?).

My question is: Just by eyeballing the two different queens, the Formica ereptor queen is nearly the same size as the Formica fusca queen, maybe a tiny bit larger. So if we can get majors in our formicarium colony, will we have majors much bigger than our formicarium queen? And when fighting enemy fusca or rufa colonies, will there be a size difference giving leaf cutters a huge advantage? Or will the costs of the leaf cutter be made much higher than rufa or fusca?

 

[Mr_Ced]

It makes sense that the costs would be higher, because larger ants tend to take longer develop and larva need to be fed more food to develop.